Breaking Barriers: The Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation’s Second Chance Philosophy

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

This podcast is for educational purposes only, does not constitute legal advice and does not create an attorney-client relationship. If you need legal assistance about a legal problem, contact an attorney.

Speaker 2: 0:13

Welcome to Know your Regulator. The podcast that inspires you to engage. I am your host, simone Murphy, and co-hosting with me today is Keri Bloodsaw, associate Attorney at the Bertolino Law Firm.

Speaker 1: 0:27

Welcome, keri Hi. Hi everybody. I’m excited to join today, ready to dive into some second chances and talk with TDLR about this really kind of interesting and inspiring new thing that they’re doing.

Speaker 2: 0:40

Yeah, it is really cool. It’s a super neat initiative. I’m really glad that we get to discuss it. Joining us to share all of the ins and outs is Jessica Hurtado, senior Prosecutor at the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation, and she is leading the charge on implementing the Second Chance philosophy. Thanks for joining us, jessica.

Speaker 3: 1:02

Thank you, thanks for having me. Yes, I am Jessica Hurtado. I am a senior prosecutor at the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation. I’ve been with the department since 2017, and I’ve been working on criminal history matters since about 2020.

Speaker 2: 1:20

That’s awesome. So we’ll start with kind of the basics of this second chance philosophy. Can you talk to us about what TLR’s second chance program is and how it came about?

Speaker 3: 1:35

Sure.

Speaker 3: 1:36

So in 2019, there was a House bill that was passed House Bill 1342, that did a couple of things to try to enhance second chance opportunities for individuals who have a criminal background and who wish to get a license to work in their chosen profession.

Speaker 3: 1:58

And so that bill, basically it removed some barriers to that licensure, and one of those barriers was that previously there was a subsection that said you could deny a license application to someone who had a criminal conviction within the last five years, even if that conviction really had nothing to do with the industry they were trying to work in, and so that was one thing that got removed, that that’s helpful for individuals. And the second thing that that House bill did was it added, actually, section 53003 of the Occupations Code, where the legislature lays out that it is the intent of the law that we enhance opportunities for a person who has been convicted and served their sentence to gain employment. So the legislature told us right there in the law that we need to make these second chances a priority. Nice, that makes sense, right, it does. And one thing that we know about recidivism is that coming out and being able to get a job is really important in reducing that rate of recidivism back into prison.

Speaker 1: 3:22

That’s good to know, okay, really good to know. Well, I think you’ve really kind of laid out a lot about, like, how this is going to be beneficial, basically that it’s not shutting the door on a lot of folks that maybe it used to. Can you talk specifically about maybe any individual license that you think this is going to really help applicants with? Or is it just kind of in general, you guys hope to see a blanket benefit to anybody that had a conviction that’s looking to get licensed now?

Speaker 3: 3:52

TDLR has always taken a individualized approach when we look at someone’s criminal history and only very rarely, in some special circumstances, is there a blanket denial, but most often there are things that people can do to help their chances. Now there is another sort of second chances initiative that came about that applies specifically to our electrical and HVAC programs and that those programs. What the law allows is for the department to issue what is termed a restricted license and that license allows an individual who may want to work in an industrial or a commercial setting to get that license and work in those settings with a criminal history that may have been concerning for someone who is going into residential locations or to homes or schools, something like that.

Speaker 3: 4:59

So, as far as a restricted license goes, when we’re examining someone’s criminal history, we’re looking at the guideline crimes that we have adopted, and so, for example, one of those guideline crimes involves crimes that involve physical harm or assault to another individual. Okay, so that is going to be a concern for anyone who is maybe you’re going to let into your home as an electrician or as an HVAC technician. Those are the kinds of things that we may be concerned about, and this came about because these individuals would come to the commission and they would have their employers there who are supporting them and want to employ them in these industrial commercial settings. But the problem was the law did not allow us to limit them to those types of settings, and so, while we could all say, today you’re working here, but tomorrow, you know you’re free to go anywhere else and we can’t monitor that, and so this really allows us to get more into the nitty gritty with someone and, when they have the support of their employer, and to spell out those actual restrictions that they’re going to agree to and their employer is going to agree to, such as the employer may agree, I’m going to be there with him on the job site or the employer may agree, agree, I’m not going to be there, but he’s not going to work on our residential locations and I’m going to be responsible for ensuring that those restrictions are followed.

Speaker 3: 6:36

And that’s important, because the department does not have the resources to monitor a restricted license, does not have the resources to monitor a restricted license. But if we have another licensee who is saying I’m going to put my own license on the line you know I am putting by saying I’m going to uphold these restrictions and if I don’t I’m leaving myself open, you know, to a possible penalty or sanction then that really goes a long way to getting that person getting that agreement in place so that they can go to work. And then once they’ve shown that they can, you know, be successful for that license term, when they come around again for renewal assuming there’s no new criminal history then they’re going to be able to get that full license assuming there’s no new criminal history, then they’re going to be able to get that full license.

Speaker 1: 7:30

Yeah, and it seems like probably what PDLR’s main goal was, even back when the law was different, which is like we just want to protect, you know, the public and we want to make sure that especially people that are going into people’s homes don’t have history that we don’t like. But it makes sense to me that, yeah, if you can have somebody kind of vouching for your applicant, then you know it benefits them to give them a chance, as opposed to just kind of black letter lawing it and saying, no, you know, we can’t have you here. Yeah, that’s really great. So you kind of touched on it a little bit with that in terms of, like, employer support but for applicants listening, what are some other things that you find really helpful? When an application comes across your desk where there’s some criminal history, what are you kind of wanting and looking for?

Speaker 3: 8:14

Yeah, that’s a great question. So there’s a couple of different things that we’re looking at we’re always going to be looking at. First of all, is this a criminal history? Is it directly related to the occupation that they’re seeking? So, for example, we’re talking about electricians, for the guidelines for electricians don’t include any type of drug offenses or intoxication offenses. So if that’s your criminal history background and you want to be an electrician, you’re not going to have an issue as far as your criminal history goes. Now compare that to a tow truck driver, which we also regulate. You know, an intoxication offense is of actual great concern for a tow truck driver, because if you were to drive a tow truck while intoxicated, you would be putting the public in danger, and so we’re always balancing this second chances versus protecting the public safety, as you mentioned earlier. So that’s the first thing that we’re going to be looking at. Now, that’s not really within the applicant’s control, but it’s good for them to know the applicant’s control, but it’s good for them to know Some other things that are.

Speaker 3: 9:30

Important is how much time has passed since the last offense occurred. Obviously, the longer in time you go without having a new crime, the better it is, the more, you’ve shown that you’ve rehabilitated yourself. But the things that that really can impact an applicant which which they can provide to us are proof of rehabilitation efforts is a big one. So, for example, you know, sometimes we’ll see someone with a history of theft offenses which can be a concern for several of our programs.

Speaker 3: 10:07

Again, if you’re going into homes or if you’re going to be around unintended property, you know theft is always going to be a concern and you may also see a lot of drug offenses along with those thefts. And when they are explaining their criminal history they may say to you you know, I was addicted to drugs and that caused me to steal property, to further you know my addiction or whatnot, right, so when you can, so in that type of situation, if you were to present, you know, I find it very persuasive if somebody can present to me here’s the rehabilitation I’ve done for my drug addiction. You know, what programs have I participated in? Am I going to a group, you know? Am I participating in some sort of therapy, participating in some sort of therapy? Anything like that to show that I’ve addressed the root cause of my criminal history, of my thefts, you know, is always very persuasive.

Speaker 1: 11:13

Right. So really things that kind of can give TDLR some reassurance that whatever the issue was has kind of been cured or that this person is now, you know, just different from who they were back then exactly, and letters from individuals that know the person can be very persuasive a lot of times.

Speaker 3: 11:35

you know, doing this for as long as I have, I can tell the difference between a letter that someone has written for someone that they may not know as well as some, against a letter that you know, where you can tell the person writing the letter knows the individual well and it’s very persuasive when they can speak to the fact that they know what their criminal history is and they’re still willing to say you know, this is how they’ve changed. Sometimes, if a letter writer you know can say great things about a person but they don’t indicate to me that they are aware of the person’s background, that can it’s not as helpful because then it’s like, well, did they know about this past?

Speaker 3: 12:28

because you know you know, people don’t want to talk about their criminal history. Clearly I mean and so it’s more persuasive to me if the person writing the letter can demonstrate that right.

Speaker 1: 12:41

Well, that’s really reassuring to hear, because I say that to my clients all the time. I say the best letter is a letter that’s going to speak to what the issue is, so that the agency is aware, like here’s all these great things about this person and I’m also aware of why we’re here. Because, right, I think to your point. It kind of deflates a letter if you’re sitting there reading it, unsure if they even know about you, know what your concern is in this case you know, criminal history.

Speaker 2: 13:07

Really great for our viewers to know and super impactful. It’s just so awesome that TDLR is really focusing on like allowing rehabilitation and like noticing those efforts, because a lot of I don’t know some people can probably get really far and then really find that wall when they go back into the world and try and get into the workforce and there’s just kind of a icky stigma and things like that. That can just be deflating to you know, to some. But again, one thing that really did catch our attention was that you’re not just reviewing the applicants post-release, you guys are going into prisons. Can you talk to us a little bit about that prison outreach program? What does that look like?

Speaker 3: 13:57

Sure. So I’m trying to think about when this started. It’s been several years since we started working really closely with the Wyndham School District which, for your listeners, the Wyndham School District and get that high school education that you may not have, get your GED. And now what’s really exciting is that they’re offering more and more secondary education. So associate’s degrees and even bachelor degrees now. So associate’s degrees and even bachelor degrees.

Speaker 3: 14:43

Now when TDLR comes in with that is that if they’re going to be getting that training while they’re incarcerated, we want to make sure they’re going to be eligible for that license when they get out. And so we work with Wyndham. Wyndham has the students fill out what we call a CHEL application, which is a criminal history evaluation letter, and anybody in the general public can get a CHEL and pay. It’s a $10 fee for the public, but with Wyndham we do that for them for free. But we work with their students so that they submit those in advance to make sure if that person has some criminal history that is within the guidelines that they’re still going to need to take more steps. I’m going to need to get more of that, you know, rehabilitative information or letters of recommendation. I’m going to have to work a little harder if I want to get the license.

Speaker 1: 15:54

So it sounds like how these inmates kind of find out about this program is through Wyndham, is through the school. They’re going to let them know hey look, these are these new programs, and then they get to start. What’s the reception been like? I mean, have you had a lot of people taking advantage of these programs and have you seen kind of what’s happened after they’ve been able to complete it? If they have been?

Speaker 3: 16:21

Yeah, I think the reception has been good. We’ve really increased the number of Chells that we’ve done for WINDOW over the last couple of years. We’ve also given their what they call. They’re called student advisors, so these are the individuals in the prison who is helping the student decide, like, what kind of vocational training they may want, and so we’ve actually trained those individuals on our licensing process so they can help the students better understand. These are the guideline crimes. These are the things that are going to be, you know, maybe an issue, or explain to them, or you know, maybe they’ll explain to them. Your criminal history is actually not going to be an issue if you want to be electrician or if you want to be a cosmetologist.

Speaker 3: 17:09

The other exciting thing that we’re doing with the Windham School District now is that we’re accepting applications from their students in these regulated industries in advance of their release, and so that allows us to have that processing time to process their application through our system while that student is approaching their release from incarceration, so that we can get that license into their hands, as you know, as quickly as possible after that day one release, because the faster they get the license, the faster they can go to work and hopefully, you know, become productive members of our society and go forth and be successful in their profession. And so that’s really exciting, working with Wyndham on how to do that and get that program up and running this last, I guess, two years now.

Speaker 1: 18:04

Yeah, that aspect sounds really great, and I was a public defender in Georgia and Fulton County for a long time, so I know like if we had had something like that, then, like it’s. It’s really disheartening when you’re coming out of, you know, prison or even sometimes when you’re, if you’re in jail for however long, um, and just not knowing what you can do and like you were punished, but now you’re out and you still can’t do anything. So the fact that they could know like oh, I have, you know, maybe four more months or whatever it is, but I have a license waiting for me. I can imagine that also just makes that time for them, you know, even more easy to bear or like gives them even more of a reason to do well and do other things you know, productive while they’re, while they’re, you know, inside, because they know they have that waiting for them. That’s really great.

Speaker 1: 18:58

I don’t know how many other states are doing that, but I’d actually like to look into it. We’ve kind of been mostly focusing on applicants, right, simone? So people that haven’t had a license before, can we talk a little bit about reinstatement? So maybe somebody that was denied before just outright, or somebody that lost their license based on a conviction. What’s kind of changing or what’s this looking like for them?

Speaker 3: 19:25

Sure Great question. So when we’re talking about someone who’s lost a license due to their criminal history again, or they were denied, you know when they originally applied. It goes back to the that individual review, and so there have been many instances that I have personally worked on where you know it’s been two or three years and now the person has more time has elapsed and maybe they’ve shown, maybe they’ve presented some additional rehabilitative efforts or some letters of recommendation where I have absolutely granted a license where in the past they had been denied, and it’s just. It’s all about that balance of we need to protect the public but also give people an opportunity to be employed, and sometimes people are right on the line and so a couple of years can make the difference.

Speaker 3: 20:25

Also, when you speaking about losing a license, you know if you had a penalty or a fine that you owed and you didn’t pay it and you got your license revoked for that reason. Now the law actually allows us to reinstate your license as soon as you get into a payment plan. So you get into a payment plan with the department, come in, you know and agree that you’re going to pay off whatever the penalty is you owed, and you don’t have to wait that full year now before getting your license back. So that, I think, is really helpful, because the whole point of revoking the license is just because, simply, you need to pay your fine. You owe a penalty for whatever reason, and you need to pay it, and that’s kind of the only stick the department has. And so if you’re going to come back and say yes, I’ll pay, then there’s really no reason not to let you have your license back.

Speaker 1: 21:26

Right and kind of goes hand in hand a little bit with this in terms of second chances and especially if it’s a monetary issue. You know you don’t want that to hold someone back, just like you don’t want someone’s criminal history to hold them back from being licensed. That’s really great for those inmates.

Speaker 2: 22:01

I mean, you can really save yourself some heartache or some stress or just the anxiousness of can I, can I not really early? For, like I said, $10. I think that’s super powerful. It’s such a great option that these potential licensees have to know early on can I obtain this license? Should I go to school for this? Should I take these classes and really sink a bunch of money and time into this, or should I simply look for something else? You know?

Speaker 3: 22:27

Yeah, absolutely. None of us want to waste our hard-earned money and resources and time in a pursuit that we’re ultimately you know there’s going to be harder for us to get a license or maybe not, you know immediately able to do so. So, yeah, we always encourage people to get that shell before they commit to, you know, cosmetology school or barbering school or any of the other regulated industries where you know you have to invest up front in that education.

Speaker 2: 23:01

Yeah, Well, jessica, thank you very much for joining us this afternoon. It’s been a really eye-opening conversation about this super impactful program. It really is more than just a policy. It sounds like it’s a cultural shift that’s happening. I hope that we can see this amongst other agencies. It’s just treating people like they’re, you know, so much more than a bad moment or a bad period of time in their life or maybe just a misunderstood period of time, and you guys are really giving them the tools that they need to succeed straight out of you know leaving prisons. That’s super awesome. Thank you very need to succeed straight out of you know leaving prisons. That’s super awesome. Thank you very much for carving time out of your day to join us.

Speaker 1: 23:45

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you, thank you so much and to our viewers.

Speaker 2: 23:52

Thank you for tuning in. If you or someone you know has a criminal history and is wondering if they can obtain a professional license, don’t assume that the answer is no. You can get more second chance information at tdlrtexasgov and visit the link below in our description. Follow us for more insights, stories and updates that matter to license holders across Texas. Until next time, stay inspired and continue engaging with your regulatory agency.

Speaker 1: 24:21

Know your Regulator. The podcast that inspires you to engage.